Back to my problem

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Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:27 am

Been away a while and been coping the system. Here is where I am at, hopefully Mike may have the answer.

New boiler pump fitted and new PCB, tried with both PCB's fault continues with both.

Boiler mate calls for heat and store gets up to temp but boiler pump never shuts off (that'll be why it failed in the first place), if I swithe off the boiler mate when its hot and switch it on again it sets up correctly with boiler pump off and the PCB Indicators showing correctly. It will sit like this quite happily until enough demand is made on the store to drop the temp enouch to fire up the boiler and pump. Then it will just keep going, never switching off with the boiler firing every 20 mins or so for about one minute. So I've just been switching it off when not required.

Mike?

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:23 am

Hi Stephen

It still sounds to me as though the store is not reaching temperature. If the store is close to its temperature set point but hasn't quite got there yet, when you switch off the power the pcb resets itself and takes away the command.

It's important to know what temperature the store has actually reached when the boiler cycles and the boiler pump continues to run. The store temperature is read via the S1 & S2 sensors. To get these figures, press button S2 below the display on the PCB and it will alternate its display between S1 and the actual temperature (eg 65). By pressing button S1 you will scroll through the readings for S2, S3, S4 etc. S6 is the middle store sensor reading. S6 starts the boiler if it falls below 68deg C and stops the boiler at 77deg C. So, if the store sensor S6 is below 77deg C the store PCB will continue to tell the boiler to start and will keep the boiler pump running.

If the store isn't reaching temperature, the problem is almost alway down to the gas boiler and not the Gledhill Boilermate.

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Dave Hickey
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service@midlandboilercare.co.uk
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:43 am

Thanks Dave

But surely when I switch the system off and on again the board would call for heat if it wasn't at temp? It doesn't, it re-sets as normal with no activity unti hot water demand prompts the call for heat again?

Stephen.

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:50 am

Hi Stephen

What you say would make sense with a normal heating system, however, the Boilermate is constantly monitoring its temperature and won't switch off the command until it reaches its OFF set point, and when it does, it won't switch its command back on until it falls below the ON set point.
When you turn off you cancel the current command, but when you turn it back on again the units temperature is ABOVE the ON set point and therefore won't generate a command. Simples!!
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:16 am

Ah ok, that makes sense, I'll check out the readings, do the store temp sensors fail and need replaced?

I spoke to the Gledhill line when I was away and having explained what it was doing the chap wanted me in front of the unit with a multimeter ready, was going to do that tomorrow with a mate who knows his way around a multimeter.

Thanks for the replies.



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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:30 am

Hi Stephen

No, the sensors very rarely fail on that model. They are basically NTC thermistors (resistors that change their resistance value depending upon their temperature). Without the exact resistance against temperature graph I can't give you a specific resistance that you would be expected to find, however, as a general rule, they would read about 1,000 Ohms at boiling point and 27,000 Ohms at freezing point. Aaverage at 20deg C would be about 12,000 Ohms.

A simple test would be to measure each sensor. If the readings fall within those ranges then they're probable ok. In addition, As the ones in the Boilermate BODY are in dry pockets and sensing the same water, they should return quite similar readings. Taking the sensors out of their pocket would allow them to cool down and you will see the resistance increase. NOTE: the sensors that are in the PIPEWORK are NOT IN DRY POCKETS and you will get very wet if you take them out. Simply disconnect the inline connector and read the resistances.
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:32 am

Hi there

Spoke to gledhill and the board was showing a communications error 29, swapped it out and board now showing no errors, left the system running and when got home the boiler pump was still running (boiler not except I guess the every 20 minutes or so firing) so checked the sensors. the middle store sensor was inficating calling for heat and when I checked it was reading 70 degrees, so you are clearly correct as that being the reason the pump keeps running. So why then is the boiler not running till 77 degrees is reached? The boiler PCB is fairly new, I have two, the thermostat on the hot feed to boiler mate is new and the reset switch thermostat is new, Ideal Classic boiler. If it is the boiler what could it be? about 10 years old.

Stephen

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:39 am

Hi Stephen

There are a couple of possible reasons:
1] The temperature sensor and or potentiometer in the boiler are not reading correctly.
2] After a number of years, the main solenoid coil within the Ideal Classic boilers gas valve has a habit of breaking down when it gets hot and this will stop the boiler from firing.
When the Gledhill tells the Ideal boiler to start, the boiler looks at its thermostat first and if that is asking for heat it runs the fan. When the fan has been found it starts the ignition sequence to start the pilot and then looks for the pilot electronically. When the pilot has been found it starts the main burner. The main burner fires until the temperature has been reached.

The easiest way to determine if this is the case would be to observe the boiler when the pump running problem is present and the boiler is only firing for a bout a minute. If the boiler is continuing to run the fan but the main burner isn't firing then the boiler is being given a command to start and the temperature is below the boilers setpoint. This would almost always confirm that it's the gas valve that is failing. If so, you will need a Gas Safe Registered engineer to rectify this. DON'T let them tell you the part isn't available because it is.

You can find Gas Safe Registered engineers local to you by following this link to the Gas Safe websitehttps://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/  and use the "find an engineer" search facility.
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:45 am

Thyanks again

I think I'm pretty safe in saying that when the boiler cuts out so does the fan, because when it fires up one always hears the fan whirring up first.

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:50 am

and I've already replaced the potentiometer.

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:55 am

ah strike that last remark, Potentiemoter (limit stat yes?) I have a new one but hadn't swapped it yet, I think I('d ruled that out as a possible cause due to focussing on the failed boiler pump as being the main issue. I'll swap it tomorrow.

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:30 am

The potentiometer is the part directly behind the boilers thermostat control knob that then plugs into the pcb.
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:08 am

yep I have that, so to be clear, if it is failing then the result can be that it shuts the boiler down sooner than would be normal?

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:25 am

That's correct Stephen.
Basically the boiler only pulse fires every now and then and is unable to put sufficient heat into the Boilermate.
Although during the time when the burner is firing it puts heat into the store, during the time that the boiler isn't firing up but the pump is still running, the boiler is no longer producing heat but is cooler than the water in the store. The boiler ends up acting like a radiator and actually draws heat out of the store. As a result, when the boiler starts up again it has twice the work to do from where it last left off.
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:44 am

Cheers. I'll let you know how I get on.

I'm becoming a bit of an expert on the system after 3 months lol. When it comes to talking to gledhill I have an added complication that they dont like to acknowledge. I had a danfoss RF thermostat fitted so the original room thermostat is now set to max just an an open switch, this means the pcb indicators will always show the room thermostat calling for heat and the CH pump running, when in actual fact they will only kick in when the danfoss drops below the set temp within one of it's timed sectors.

Have I explained that correctly?

let you know result tomorrow.

whats your name by the way?

Stephen

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:12 pm

Hi Stephen

My name is Dave Hickey, I own Midland Boilercare Ltd and have been working on Gledhill equipment throughout the Midlands for 20yrs.
We have even carried out huge amounts of replacement installations directly for Gledhill over that time, although they have increased their workforce enormously in the last two years so our work from them has dropped off dramatically, but they still feed us bits and bobs when it suits them.

Wit regards to the Danfos RF stat, if I've understood correctly, you've connected the RF receiver in series with the heating pump to prevent it from working and turned the existing room stat up to max so that it gives a constant command to the unit. If that's the the case it seems a strange way of doing it as all you had to do was disconnect the existing room stat wires from the Boilermate terminal block and wire the Danfos receiver switch wires in their place. It's not a problem, but if anyone turns down the room stat it will cut the command top the unit and not produce central heating irrespective of what the Danfos does.

Right, that's it for me tonight. I'm shutting down and going home. I'll be back in the office tomorrow if you have any questions.
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:06 am

Hi Dave.

I changed the Potentiometer this morning and went out, now I am back I have checked and the boiler pump is still running, the boiler has fired recently as quite warm, the middle store sensor S6 is showing 76 degrees (nearly there but not quite) when I call through the error codes on the small "c" menu I'm getting a "37" in amongst all the other "FF" fault free codes. My book says 37 is S1 overheat open and that this would be part of the double sensor in the top dry pocket. Does this make any sense?

BTW I will be finding your website and FB shariing for my friends around the Midlands, you clearly know what your talking about.

Cheers
Stephen

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Midland Boilercare on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:23 am

HI Stephen

I've just sent you a pm to give me a call.
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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:39 am

Thanks Dave

Part ordered, mine actually has three wires going from it to the board, so I'm guessing that increases the things that can go wrong !

Should get it monday, will let you know results.

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:57 am

Sorry, when I said I'd bypassed the blocked feed to the store, I meant I had routed in just above the drain cock not into the flow from the boiler.

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:01 am

Sent you a pm Dave.

Assuming my next move is the thermistor in the heat exchanger can I test it by unplugging it from the board and see if the boiler keeps going past 75 degrees or will it not fire if unplugged?

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Hawkeye on Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:54 am

Hi Stephen
I am an owner, not an expert or plumber, but I am an engineer.
I would go back to basics.
Put the room stat wiring back to normal.

I assume that the PCB’s are the originals, but they may have lost their settings ( the manual should show you how to interrogate the PCB for faults & temperatures)

The thermal store water is heated on demand (my boiler kicks in once a day maybe twice for a few minutes).

The water is shared with the central heating (from my understanding).

What happens when you turn your heating on, does the boiler run ok and the radiators get hot.

Try run it for a while and see.

Then turn your stat down.

It should click, and your boiler should cut off after a minute or two, but the pumps run on for a while.

If your roads get hot and the boiler behaves, then I think the problem is your thermal store sensing.

Do you have a stuck valve, so perhaps your water is seeping into your radiator circuit and hence losing heat from the store.

Improbable, but we had a controller go and the roads were heating with the heating off.

Culprit was the Zone Valve Actuator.

But I am sure you would notice the radiators heating.

Do you have enough water in the circuit ?

Make sure via your fill loop - Mine is 1.5 BAR with the system off.

My system is different to pictures I have seen.

My label calls it a Boilermate A Class

Another label calls it a Boilermate SP Line 1.

I have seen pictures showing a pump for the water, thermal store and radiators.

I have two conventional pumps and a Danfloss Randall Type HSA3 Box (whatever that is).

I need to work out what function that is doing.

You could maybe trick your system.

Mine has 3 thermal sensors top, bottom and middle of the store.

They look identical and simply unplug from a connector.

You could try swapping them around.

Assuming that the sensor does not need to be touching metal ( mine has bit of metal on the side that springs out when removed) you could pull one out and put a plastic cover over and put it in a bowl of ice and interrogate the system and see what the temperature reads.

You could repeat for the other two.

You could also plunge them into hot (but not boiling) water and do the same.

If you have a thermometer handy then you can compare.

That way you know if your thermostats are accurate.

Not sure if the system is smart enough to ignore 1 spurious reading (ie if one sensor shows 50 deg and the others over 70 will the boiler kick in ?)

But worth a shot to see if you can trick the boiler into firing.

You might need to cool all 3 sensors.

What happens when you put your immersion system on.

What temperature is the store then ?

I assume the system will cut off once it reaches its pre-set maximum.

With my system in Constant, I have a 1 in the left half of my display and a flashing Red dot in the bottom RH corner of the left half.

This is DISP1 above the S2 button

So I have two halves with the outline of an 8

So 8 | 8 (DISP2 & DISP1)

The board has 147MN FD40 06/45 on the label

The dot is here 8.

Like a full stop after the 8

I also have a flashing Green LED on the board SPD1/2A

It is next to a Red DIP Switch bank labelled DIP4

Lastly never rule out stuck relays

I sometimes give them a tap in case they are jammed

Hope this helps

Rich


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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Hawkeye on Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:55 am

Should be rads not roads (stupid spell checker)

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Stephen on Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:00 pm

Many thanks for that extensive post and the effort you have put in.

I will test the mid sensor as you suggest, but as evrything else about it seems to be working properly I reckon as Midland Boiler Dave suggests that it is the boiler cutting out prematurely at 76 degrees rather 77.

Stephen

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Re: Back to my problem

Post  Mike the Boilerman on Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:24 am

Stephen,

Did you find the problem and fix this in the end?

Although I rarely visit the forum these days the software here seems to have started sending me emails suggesting threads for me to read, and this thread is one!

I don't think so far anyone has suggested measuring the boiler flow temperature at the point it cuts out. David may know better but on an old skool boiler such as the Ideal Classic I would be expecting a flow temperature of 80C or even a little more. A new thermistor in the boiler might fix this if it is turning off at 76C or so.

A further point not mentioned though (and again David will know) is I am under the impression that the Boilermate software learns the temperature at which whatever boiler is connected to it it stops firing, and adjusts its store temperature heat calls to suit. This seems not to be happening here.

Mike

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